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	<title>Comments on: TF2 Adds Crowd Control</title>
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	<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/</link>
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		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/comment-page-1/#comment-72</link>
		<dc:creator>bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:48:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://schizoslayer.com/?p=250#comment-72</guid>
		<description>However-you are able to aim at the scout who hit you, who has very little health anyway, guaranteeing their death if they&#039;re not smart about it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>However-you are able to aim at the scout who hit you, who has very little health anyway, guaranteeing their death if they&#8217;re not smart about it.</p>
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		<title>By: RobHale</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/comment-page-1/#comment-69</link>
		<dc:creator>RobHale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 03:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://schizoslayer.com/?p=250#comment-69</guid>
		<description>@ Dave Mark

You are completely right. The Sandman is I think a balanced and above all required tool in the game as there was so little you could do to counter an ubercharge. Speaking as a long-time Heavy Player (and as such typically a magnet for medics with a primed uber) I fully understand and endorse the need for such a counter.

However the blog post is not really about whether the Sandman is balanced or not but about how the experience of being stunned is a frustrating break of flow to alot of players. The solution given will not affect the balance of the Stun or it&#039;s ultimate effects. It will however make it less frustrating to less skilled players.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Dave Mark</p>
<p>You are completely right. The Sandman is I think a balanced and above all required tool in the game as there was so little you could do to counter an ubercharge. Speaking as a long-time Heavy Player (and as such typically a magnet for medics with a primed uber) I fully understand and endorse the need for such a counter.</p>
<p>However the blog post is not really about whether the Sandman is balanced or not but about how the experience of being stunned is a frustrating break of flow to alot of players. The solution given will not affect the balance of the Stun or it&#8217;s ultimate effects. It will however make it less frustrating to less skilled players.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Mark</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/comment-page-1/#comment-67</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 02:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://schizoslayer.com/?p=250#comment-67</guid>
		<description>I have to disagree simply because the effect is so short-lived. I have to admit that it really makes the scout effective on defense. 

I&#039;m 99% demoman and I&#039;m deadly effective against hardware with a good medic in tow. But nothing stops an ubercharge more impressively than getting &quot;bonked&quot; by a scout. Before, the only way you could slow up an uberdemo was with a Pyro&#039;s blast (even then, I can do some serious damage). But I actually give a grudging chuckle of respect when I turn the corner all sparkly and glowy like and get whacked up-side the cabessa with a ball. I can still do some damage, but certainly not enough. 

Therefore, I make the case that by doing a minor, action-based, nerf on ubered demos like me does the game a service. After all, everyone bitched that demos were over-powered, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to disagree simply because the effect is so short-lived. I have to admit that it really makes the scout effective on defense. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m 99% demoman and I&#8217;m deadly effective against hardware with a good medic in tow. But nothing stops an ubercharge more impressively than getting &#8220;bonked&#8221; by a scout. Before, the only way you could slow up an uberdemo was with a Pyro&#8217;s blast (even then, I can do some serious damage). But I actually give a grudging chuckle of respect when I turn the corner all sparkly and glowy like and get whacked up-side the cabessa with a ball. I can still do some damage, but certainly not enough. </p>
<p>Therefore, I make the case that by doing a minor, action-based, nerf on ubered demos like me does the game a service. After all, everyone bitched that demos were over-powered, right?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/comment-page-1/#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Mar 2009 12:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://schizoslayer.com/?p=250#comment-45</guid>
		<description>After playing it, I&#039;m also not happy with the way it&#039;s played out.  The ideas given here are quite good, especially not forcing the 3rd person view.  It feels so wrong, like I&#039;ve been killed.

That being said, I do quite like how it prevents you from shooting.  This is particularly effective against the Scout&#039;s nemesis, the Heavy.  It makes the minigun to stop spinning, which forces the player to start spinning up again, or try to run away from the much faster Scout who&#039;s probably bashing him with the bat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After playing it, I&#8217;m also not happy with the way it&#8217;s played out.  The ideas given here are quite good, especially not forcing the 3rd person view.  It feels so wrong, like I&#8217;ve been killed.</p>
<p>That being said, I do quite like how it prevents you from shooting.  This is particularly effective against the Scout&#8217;s nemesis, the Heavy.  It makes the minigun to stop spinning, which forces the player to start spinning up again, or try to run away from the much faster Scout who&#8217;s probably bashing him with the bat.</p>
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		<title>By: wyrmsine</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/comment-page-1/#comment-41</link>
		<dc:creator>wyrmsine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Mar 2009 00:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://schizoslayer.com/?p=250#comment-41</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s exactly the animation I was expecting for the Sandman, actually. The first time I got hit with it, I had no idea what was going on (&quot;He didn&#039;t throw the ball up, so I couldn&#039;t be hit by the Sandman&quot;). It&#039;s strange that something so incapacitating (even to ubered players, IIRC) has almost no lead-time or warning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s exactly the animation I was expecting for the Sandman, actually. The first time I got hit with it, I had no idea what was going on (&#8220;He didn&#8217;t throw the ball up, so I couldn&#8217;t be hit by the Sandman&#8221;). It&#8217;s strange that something so incapacitating (even to ubered players, IIRC) has almost no lead-time or warning.</p>
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		<title>By: mrrobsa</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/comment-page-1/#comment-37</link>
		<dc:creator>mrrobsa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 15:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://schizoslayer.com/?p=250#comment-37</guid>
		<description>Maybe a quick animation showing the scout tossing the baseball up before thwacking it would improve readability/anticipation, and gives an attentive, agile player the chance to dodge. Agreed that it seems a bit &#039;un-Valve&#039; to force stunned players to freeze and wait for death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe a quick animation showing the scout tossing the baseball up before thwacking it would improve readability/anticipation, and gives an attentive, agile player the chance to dodge. Agreed that it seems a bit &#8216;un-Valve&#8217; to force stunned players to freeze and wait for death.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen 'Crispy' Etheridge</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/comment-page-1/#comment-36</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen 'Crispy' Etheridge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Mar 2009 14:25:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://schizoslayer.com/?p=250#comment-36</guid>
		<description>I do agree that it&#039;s harder to pull off than it seems when you get hit by it, but I think this skill will inevitably be acquired with practise, making it even more brutal.

I agree with how you are trying to address the &#039;helplessness/disconnect&#039; of the players hit by the Sandman stun, but I think you have overlooked one of the other major frustrations.

Right now there is no chargeup for the Sandman considering its effect is so powerful. There&#039;s always a lot of talk about &#039;anticipation&#039; being important in games, and I think it&#039;s just as true here. The player using the stun doesn&#039;t have much of a chance to relish his dastardly plan: the ball simply zaps someone (it&#039;s that fast) and then it&#039;s all about capitalising as soon as possible. It&#039;s not like the uber where you get to the last 10% and start fantasising about how much carnage you&#039;re going to be reaping in a few seconds&#039; time.

But more importantly the player being targeted has no anticipation at all. There is no warning. There is no lead-in animation and no real chance of escape if the move is executed in mid-range where it&#039;s fast enough to be unavoidable and stuns long enough to make it an easy finish.

The move needs to be &#039;readable&#039; (something Valve have focused on and championed with TF2 so far). All other moves in TF2 are readable. The thing with this one is it can either be used in ranged or in melee combat, and the idle weapon animation makes no distinction. So every time you see someone holding a Sandman above their head you are forced into a state of confusion: &quot;Are they about to run at me with their bat or are they about to shoot me?&quot;

So I think there are 2 major issues that need to be addressed:
- The loss of control (&quot;Waiting to Die&quot;), and
- Readability/anticipation</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do agree that it&#8217;s harder to pull off than it seems when you get hit by it, but I think this skill will inevitably be acquired with practise, making it even more brutal.</p>
<p>I agree with how you are trying to address the &#8216;helplessness/disconnect&#8217; of the players hit by the Sandman stun, but I think you have overlooked one of the other major frustrations.</p>
<p>Right now there is no chargeup for the Sandman considering its effect is so powerful. There&#8217;s always a lot of talk about &#8216;anticipation&#8217; being important in games, and I think it&#8217;s just as true here. The player using the stun doesn&#8217;t have much of a chance to relish his dastardly plan: the ball simply zaps someone (it&#8217;s that fast) and then it&#8217;s all about capitalising as soon as possible. It&#8217;s not like the uber where you get to the last 10% and start fantasising about how much carnage you&#8217;re going to be reaping in a few seconds&#8217; time.</p>
<p>But more importantly the player being targeted has no anticipation at all. There is no warning. There is no lead-in animation and no real chance of escape if the move is executed in mid-range where it&#8217;s fast enough to be unavoidable and stuns long enough to make it an easy finish.</p>
<p>The move needs to be &#8216;readable&#8217; (something Valve have focused on and championed with TF2 so far). All other moves in TF2 are readable. The thing with this one is it can either be used in ranged or in melee combat, and the idle weapon animation makes no distinction. So every time you see someone holding a Sandman above their head you are forced into a state of confusion: &#8220;Are they about to run at me with their bat or are they about to shoot me?&#8221;</p>
<p>So I think there are 2 major issues that need to be addressed:<br />
- The loss of control (&#8220;Waiting to Die&#8221;), and<br />
- Readability/anticipation</p>
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		<title>By: rob hale</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/comment-page-1/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>rob hale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://schizoslayer.com/?p=250#comment-32</guid>
		<description>I always have City of Heroes in mind when it comes to CC that doesn&#039;t annoy the crap out of me. The Disorient was funny and that bought it alot of good faith I think.

All the other CC powers you tended to have a resist or defence against so as they became more common at higher levels you had appropriate counters.

Assuming you could live with the increased endurance drain they had associated with them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I always have City of Heroes in mind when it comes to CC that doesn&#8217;t annoy the crap out of me. The Disorient was funny and that bought it alot of good faith I think.</p>
<p>All the other CC powers you tended to have a resist or defence against so as they became more common at higher levels you had appropriate counters.</p>
<p>Assuming you could live with the increased endurance drain they had associated with them.</p>
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		<title>By: roBurky</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/02/25/tf2-adds-crowd-control/comment-page-1/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>roBurky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2009 18:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://schizoslayer.com/?p=250#comment-31</guid>
		<description>Sounds like City Of Heroes&#039; disorientated effect. I was rarely frustrated at getting hit with that, as the animation for staggering around that it put you in control of was so amusing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like City Of Heroes&#8217; disorientated effect. I was rarely frustrated at getting hit with that, as the animation for staggering around that it put you in control of was so amusing.</p>
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