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	<title>Comments on: Flow &#8211; Stating The Obvious</title>
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		<title>By: PB</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/03/03/flow-stating-the-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-160</link>
		<dc:creator>PB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 15:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agamesdesignblog.com/?p=333#comment-160</guid>
		<description>Great post, but in the second graph shouldn&#039;t &quot;Boredom&quot; and &quot;Frustration&quot; switch places? Wouldn&#039;t boredom happen when challenge stays the same and skill increases, say moving along the graph at y-axis 1 and frustration would happen when challenge is high and skill is low, like tracing along x-axis 1?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, but in the second graph shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;Boredom&#8221; and &#8220;Frustration&#8221; switch places? Wouldn&#8217;t boredom happen when challenge stays the same and skill increases, say moving along the graph at y-axis 1 and frustration would happen when challenge is high and skill is low, like tracing along x-axis 1?</p>
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		<title>By: RobHale</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/03/03/flow-stating-the-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-56</link>
		<dc:creator>RobHale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:40:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agamesdesignblog.com/?p=333#comment-56</guid>
		<description>I think I just realised where you are coming from regarding the &quot;Intrinsically more powerful&quot; bit.

The fault of that misunderstanding is that in an MMO as you gain levels your passive abilities are increased (IE your hitpoints are in-line with your level).

These changes in passive ability mean that the zero-point is effectively being moved. When your skills are removed from the equation you can only fall so far (So the Level 50 Enemy vs a Level 50 Player who has been disabled is not the same as a Level 50 Enemy fighting a Level 1 Player).

However your Abilities and powers cannot be used during this time which is reducing your effective skill significantly below that of the enemy thus increasing the difficulty of the situation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I just realised where you are coming from regarding the &#8220;Intrinsically more powerful&#8221; bit.</p>
<p>The fault of that misunderstanding is that in an MMO as you gain levels your passive abilities are increased (IE your hitpoints are in-line with your level).</p>
<p>These changes in passive ability mean that the zero-point is effectively being moved. When your skills are removed from the equation you can only fall so far (So the Level 50 Enemy vs a Level 50 Player who has been disabled is not the same as a Level 50 Enemy fighting a Level 1 Player).</p>
<p>However your Abilities and powers cannot be used during this time which is reducing your effective skill significantly below that of the enemy thus increasing the difficulty of the situation.</p>
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		<title>By: RobHale</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/03/03/flow-stating-the-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>RobHale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agamesdesignblog.com/?p=333#comment-55</guid>
		<description>@ roBurky I think you just said exactly what I&#039;ve been trying to explain.

During Flow the Challenge faced is equivalent to the Players Skill. Thus the difficulty of the encounter is approximately zero.

However when you remove the Players ability to interact with the game or reduce it in other ways their Skill is artificially reduced making the Difficulty of the encounter Greater even though the enemies haven&#039;t gotten any more powerful.

EDIT: And a Level 50 Enemy is intrinsically more powerful than a level 1 because they are not Level 1. A Level 1 Player fighting a Level 50 Enemy is going to get owned. The Level of an enemy is itself an indicator of how Challenging it is overall. This is why Diku-style games have systems that show you the enemies difficulty relative to your level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ roBurky I think you just said exactly what I&#8217;ve been trying to explain.</p>
<p>During Flow the Challenge faced is equivalent to the Players Skill. Thus the difficulty of the encounter is approximately zero.</p>
<p>However when you remove the Players ability to interact with the game or reduce it in other ways their Skill is artificially reduced making the Difficulty of the encounter Greater even though the enemies haven&#8217;t gotten any more powerful.</p>
<p>EDIT: And a Level 50 Enemy is intrinsically more powerful than a level 1 because they are not Level 1. A Level 1 Player fighting a Level 50 Enemy is going to get owned. The Level of an enemy is itself an indicator of how Challenging it is overall. This is why Diku-style games have systems that show you the enemies difficulty relative to your level.</p>
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		<title>By: roBurky</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/03/03/flow-stating-the-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>roBurky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 15:48:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agamesdesignblog.com/?p=333#comment-54</guid>
		<description>I think calling the relative strength/power of the player and the enemies &#039;skill&#039; and &#039;challenge&#039; in an article about Flow is a bad idea, because those things don&#039;t match up with the ideas of skill and challenge in Flow.

If you&#039;re always fighting enemies of the appropriate level in an MMO, with both you and the enemy&#039;s power increasing at similar rates, then for the purposes of Flow, the background numbers of the power of that enemy are irrelevant. That stuff is all too far behind the scenes and removed from the player&#039;s experience to be important to their Flow.

Look at City of Heroes, where a level 50 enemy isn&#039;t intrinsically any more powerful than a level 1 enemy (or more challenging, by your terminology) - it&#039;s damage and accuracy is only determined by the difference in level between it and the player. Other mmorpgs use different systems for this, but the effect is the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think calling the relative strength/power of the player and the enemies &#8216;skill&#8217; and &#8216;challenge&#8217; in an article about Flow is a bad idea, because those things don&#8217;t match up with the ideas of skill and challenge in Flow.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re always fighting enemies of the appropriate level in an MMO, with both you and the enemy&#8217;s power increasing at similar rates, then for the purposes of Flow, the background numbers of the power of that enemy are irrelevant. That stuff is all too far behind the scenes and removed from the player&#8217;s experience to be important to their Flow.</p>
<p>Look at City of Heroes, where a level 50 enemy isn&#8217;t intrinsically any more powerful than a level 1 enemy (or more challenging, by your terminology) &#8211; it&#8217;s damage and accuracy is only determined by the difference in level between it and the player. Other mmorpgs use different systems for this, but the effect is the same.</p>
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		<title>By: RobHale</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/03/03/flow-stating-the-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>RobHale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:52:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agamesdesignblog.com/?p=333#comment-53</guid>
		<description>@ roBurky

To me how Difficult a Task is depends on the Challenge the task poses minus your Skill at the Task.

The Challenge offered by climbing a Rock Face might be fixed as the Rock Face doesn&#039;t change.

However as you increase in Rock Climbing Skill the Difficulty of Climbing that Rock is reduced. The Rock Face hasn&#039;t changed but you have.

Following this same logic when a Player gains a Level in a videogame they are being made more powerful. The Enemies they face haven&#039;t been changed at all so the Challenge remains the same. The Difficulty of overcoming that Challenge is however reduced because the Players Skill has been increased.

Challenge and Difficulty can be used interchangeably so Challenge may not be the best word but in this post Challenge is the Challenge offered by the game while Difficulty is relative to the Players Skill.

In the Progression vs Level Graph Progression is essentially &quot;Time&quot;. As you progress through the games content the Challenge is increased. When you gain a Level your Skill is increased reducing the Difficulty.

None of the graphs take genuine Player Skill into account as it is far too subjective. These are plotting the known artificial changes in Skill resulting from the Games Mechanics.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ roBurky</p>
<p>To me how Difficult a Task is depends on the Challenge the task poses minus your Skill at the Task.</p>
<p>The Challenge offered by climbing a Rock Face might be fixed as the Rock Face doesn&#8217;t change.</p>
<p>However as you increase in Rock Climbing Skill the Difficulty of Climbing that Rock is reduced. The Rock Face hasn&#8217;t changed but you have.</p>
<p>Following this same logic when a Player gains a Level in a videogame they are being made more powerful. The Enemies they face haven&#8217;t been changed at all so the Challenge remains the same. The Difficulty of overcoming that Challenge is however reduced because the Players Skill has been increased.</p>
<p>Challenge and Difficulty can be used interchangeably so Challenge may not be the best word but in this post Challenge is the Challenge offered by the game while Difficulty is relative to the Players Skill.</p>
<p>In the Progression vs Level Graph Progression is essentially &#8220;Time&#8221;. As you progress through the games content the Challenge is increased. When you gain a Level your Skill is increased reducing the Difficulty.</p>
<p>None of the graphs take genuine Player Skill into account as it is far too subjective. These are plotting the known artificial changes in Skill resulting from the Games Mechanics.</p>
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		<title>By: roBurky</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/03/03/flow-stating-the-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-52</link>
		<dc:creator>roBurky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 14:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agamesdesignblog.com/?p=333#comment-52</guid>
		<description>You kind of lost me when you started talking about the game increasing the player&#039;s skill by making their avatar more powerful. That&#039;s not altering the player&#039;s skill, that&#039;s altering the challenge that the game is presenting to them.

And I don&#039;t understand your progression vs level graph. What is progression there, and how is it different to level? What is challenge, and how is it different to difficulty?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You kind of lost me when you started talking about the game increasing the player&#8217;s skill by making their avatar more powerful. That&#8217;s not altering the player&#8217;s skill, that&#8217;s altering the challenge that the game is presenting to them.</p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t understand your progression vs level graph. What is progression there, and how is it different to level? What is challenge, and how is it different to difficulty?</p>
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		<title>By: RobHale</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/03/03/flow-stating-the-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>RobHale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 09:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agamesdesignblog.com/?p=333#comment-49</guid>
		<description>@Eli Good catch on the picture. I&#039;ve switched them around.

@Naurgul The reasons Designers still add Disables to games is that a Disable from a numerical point of view is damage mitigation and they balance it around this.

There is plenty of Crowd Control in games that isn&#039;t as frustrating as a straight Disable. This might be because the Player being disabled has an opportunity to counter or nullify the Disables effects (IE Their own Skill matters as to whether and to what degree they get disabled) or because the Crowd Control is only reducing their effective skill a little not completely negating it.

Guild Wars handles Crowd Control quite well as there are a huge number of potential counters and blocks that are situational (The next attack will miss and cause damage back type powers).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Eli Good catch on the picture. I&#8217;ve switched them around.</p>
<p>@Naurgul The reasons Designers still add Disables to games is that a Disable from a numerical point of view is damage mitigation and they balance it around this.</p>
<p>There is plenty of Crowd Control in games that isn&#8217;t as frustrating as a straight Disable. This might be because the Player being disabled has an opportunity to counter or nullify the Disables effects (IE Their own Skill matters as to whether and to what degree they get disabled) or because the Crowd Control is only reducing their effective skill a little not completely negating it.</p>
<p>Guild Wars handles Crowd Control quite well as there are a huge number of potential counters and blocks that are situational (The next attack will miss and cause damage back type powers).</p>
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		<title>By: Naurgul</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/03/03/flow-stating-the-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-48</link>
		<dc:creator>Naurgul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 08:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agamesdesignblog.com/?p=333#comment-48</guid>
		<description>They still do it because it&#039;s difficult to balance a game in such a way. Games are too chaotic for formal analysis most of the time and statistics require too many playetests for most developers, I guess. Not to mention the cost of fiddling with anything but just the numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They still do it because it&#8217;s difficult to balance a game in such a way. Games are too chaotic for formal analysis most of the time and statistics require too many playetests for most developers, I guess. Not to mention the cost of fiddling with anything but just the numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: Eli Just</title>
		<link>http://agamesdesignblog.com/2009/03/03/flow-stating-the-obvious/comment-page-1/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>Eli Just</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Mar 2009 04:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://agamesdesignblog.com/?p=333#comment-47</guid>
		<description>Great post, but in the second graph shouldn&#039;t &quot;Boredom&quot; and &quot;Frustration&quot; switch places? Wouldn&#039;t boredom happen when challenge stays the same and skill increases, say moving along the graph at y-axis 1 and frustration would happen when challenge is high and skill is low, like tracing along x-axis 1?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, but in the second graph shouldn&#8217;t &#8220;Boredom&#8221; and &#8220;Frustration&#8221; switch places? Wouldn&#8217;t boredom happen when challenge stays the same and skill increases, say moving along the graph at y-axis 1 and frustration would happen when challenge is high and skill is low, like tracing along x-axis 1?</p>
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